THIS WEEK, I have been following an interesting debate, on Facebook, concerning the future shape of Scottish Rugby. I have copied and pasted the thread below, for the edification of those who may have missed it.
Original post, by Gavin Blackburn:
Rumours and I reiterate its rumours but from what's being branded about: the FOSROC Super6 will be rebranded to Super8 with a squad from London Scottish and one playing out of Scotstoun under the Glasgow Warriors banner.
This could finish many of the clubs playing in Premiership and National league structure. Will take us back to potential regional rugby.
Scottish Rugby you are going to finish our game as we know it.
Andy Miller (first reply):
Don’t think it will change anything if these two teams were to join - it was always going to be expanded anyway. What they need is to play the academy players all the time and get them into the pro teams without buying players in.
Kevin C Brown to Andy Miller - Exactly this.
Gavin Blackburn to Andy Miller: It will change how the Glasgow clubs can hold onto players. Anyone that dismisses this is really holding the club game in low regard. They want a franchise out of Scotstoun, then Glasgow clubs are going to be seriously affected.
Iain Milne:
It was always likely to go to 8 and the inclusion of London Scottish is a great idea. Tap into potential down South, it will create interest up here and give a new challenge to the clubs up here. If the Welsh cross border were to continue we have exciting challenges for the players up here.
John Thorburn to Iain Milne:
Don't see how it will challenge the clubs up here, it may challenge the franchises which are half owned by the SRU. It will be good to see what the strategy is and how club rugby will look?
Kevin H Wyness to Iain Milne: The Welsh clubs have their own issues and are very unlikely to be part of this malarkey.
Jim Gemmell:
It’s all ££££££££££££££££ feck all requirement of clubs .. it’s really pathetic of the SRU. Time they woke up and listened to the clubs and fans.
Gavin Blackburn:
Where do these academy players come from that will be playing under the potential Glasgow Warriors banner? Hawks, GHA?
So these young players will be lost to the likes of these clubs I'm sure. Now Stage 3 players, they will be affiliated to Warriors anyway but what about the Stage 1 and 2 players where will they go? Warriors as well?
Would they not be better playing for their club of origin to continue developing? So clubs in Glasgow could potentially nurture young players from P3 up to U18; they show potential THEN they are whisked away to Glasgow Warriors Super 8 without playing a 1st team game for their club?
But it's OK because as a certain individual said "Fewer is stronger" and that man has been allowed to rip the heart out of the club game. Come on clubs: wakey wakey sit up and do something about it collectively.
John Thorburn to Gavin Blackburn:
Spot on.
Iain Milne to Gavin Blackburn:
Gavin, the clubs have failed miserably to work together for years, they have been to full of self interest, I have witnessed this sitting on Prem 1 forums for years, speaking to clubs at all levels who agree in principle to sensible ideas but when it comes to push or shove they do what’s best for their own club!
Ambitious players have always moved up the ladder to test themselves, you won’t stop that. Clubs of course were the worst offenders at encouraging this by offering money to players of dubious standard and motive.
We will talk sometime but club rugby needs to work hard at giving a product players want. Most of club rugby should be about fun, that is or was our strength over many years. This fixation about climbing up leagues no matter what the cost is driving players away.
Kevin C Brown to Gavin Blackburn:
The thing is, the average return for a club spending 12 years developing a player through to exit at U18 is about 6. 6 guys move on to playing Senior rugby in year one. In any year how many of these guys will be good enough to move into super 6? It’s unlikely that even one will be ready for that.
Gavin Blackburn to Kevin C Brown:
I think Hawks and GHA would feel they have many talented players that could be lost to Super 6/8.
Kevin C Brown to Gavin Blackburn:
But at 18? Probably not and the reality as Windy said is players move on. I would argue a bigger concern for Rugby clubs is players who just stop playing at 17/18.
Trevor Carmichael to Kevin C Brown:
There are no incentives for players at Senior Rugby at 18+. Resurrect Inter-District championship at various age groups(U16(maybe), U18 & U21) and senior level. 8 week block of fixtures in a semi pro environment after league campaign or break in season for a Regional Cup competition.
GHA supporters are not going to watch a ex GHA player playing in Super Six. On the other hand GHA supporters would go and watch a GHA player who has been select to play for District side.
Rangi Jericevich to Iain Milne:
We are all entitled to our own views and in a democracy such as the SRU all views should be given a fair hearing and voted on. That is how disputed ideas can be resolved in a civil manner.
The rivalries and differing views between clubs at various levels are a reflection of human nature and with the right system in place these rivalries can be harnessed to drive the game forward. If clubs are to be looked down upon for daring to be ambitious then why do any of us bother to get out of bed in the morning?
I don't wish to get into detail about why I think you are misguided in your thinking but it would have been nice to be given the opportunity to do so at any point during the development of the S6 concept in the first place and now in it's expansion.
The problem with all of this Iain, is that it goes against the very principal of what a Union is supposed to be about and destroys the trust required to keep it on an even keel. There is no forum for discussion or consultation, the SRU is now a dictatorship.
I hope you can reflect on the manner in which this change is being implemented and, whilst we may disagree on things, ask whether this is truly the right way for our game to be run.
Kevin C Brown to Trevor Carmichael:
I wouldn’t disagree about a district competition for Senior amateur players. Regional competition already exists at U16/18/20 level. Why wouldn’t a GHA supporter not go to watch an ex GHA player playing Super 6 as long as it didn’t conflict with a club game? I’d go and watch any game of rugby available to me.
Iain Milne to Rangi Jericevich:
Firstly can I say, as I have said before: Super 6 was not my choice however we have it now and I will support it and try and make it better.
Again as I’ve said before the clubs could not make a decision on how to move forward ( there’s a surprise) but they had the opportunity to put forward their ideas.
Please do no get my views on rugby mixed up with with lack of ambition. That had never been my attitude playing or involved off the pitch.
Ambition can take many forms, it is simply just not about climbing leagues as seems to be the mantra these days. My ambition is for club rugby to be a success again, on and off the pitch.
I would suggest most clubs ambitions should revolve round increasing playing numbers and busy fun club houses, a game for all.
Local leagues. I’ve tried to put forward my ideas in the past but they seemingly are not what clubs wanted so I will concentrate my efforts at My own clubs.
Having been closely involved with club rugby over the last 10 years or so it disappoints me at the lack of progress at club rugby to produce a product that young players of today want, there really has been no change bar Super 6, numbers when I last looked still continue to drop and more fixtures fail to take place.
The clubs have it in their own power to make change but despite many words spoken we have not moved forward.
Trevor Carmichael to Kevin C Brown:
Age grade district competitions??? Not to the level that the inter district championship provided many years ago at U18 & U21 levels.
What I’m actually trying to say is crowds would be bigger at an inter district game than at a Super Six game due to this factor. Clubs would also get the benefit of selected players coming back to the club, bringing there experience/ development back to the club and pass onto younger players.
Bottom line everyone would be playing rugby rather than someone being signed to a Super Six side and playing no more than 3 games in one season if that.
Kevin C Brown to Trevor Carmichael:
I’d disagree with you on that. Having coached within the age grade programme with Edinburgh the quality of rugby and the players it has produced is just as good as it was many years ago.
I don't disagree, the appetite for Senior district rep rugby is there. There’s an appetite for Super 6.....2500 folk went to a Boroughmuir game in the first round of games. I’d imagine that an Edinburgh District XV would get about the same in a crowd.
Trevor Carmichael to Kevin C Brown:
Boroughmuir game when they gave away loads of tickets free. I’m not saying the quality isn’t good I just don’t think competitions/tournaments lends well to increasing their experience at a higher level of rugby.
Maybe they would get similar crowds but we need players playing rugby every week during the season - super six doesn’t do that, it’s there to get players ready for step up to the pro game. How is that achievable if half of them aren’t playing.
Kevin C Brown to Trevor Carmichael:
Giving away free stuff is the cornerstone of good sports marketing. I don't think Super 6 is perfect and the issue of players not being able to play for club is probably one of them, but it’s there and happening. It is very unlikely to go away.
Speak to Super 6 players and they will tell you it is a step up from club rugby. The margins of making it as a pro are so thin, but training and playing in higher intensity, more physical and more skilful environments will hopefully help with a greater return.
If in 5 years it doesn’t work then I think people can feel aggrieved but we are always on a knife edge of becoming a rugby backwater......this has to be given the chance to work.
Gavin Blackburn to Kevin C Brown:
Who says Super 6 is the best way forward? The "Union"? The fact remains they could have created a competitive environment by bringing back district rugby within the club season and investing In the top 10/12 clubs in Scotland rather than part owning 6 franchises that play in a structure that actually inhibits players playing the game.
The total investment could have been spread across the premiership and they could quite easily have brought in the top 4 playing in Cross border league with teams from the principality. Now I'm sure that was done before oh that's right it was called the B&I cup.
If we are looking at growing numbers and the quality they should have looked at the top 10/12 maybe even 20 clubs and funded them properly that would have created a sustainable structure that would have kept players playing every week.
The identity players would have had playing for their district would have been massive for the players at the same time.
Kevin C Brown to Gavin Blackburn:
But who’s to say that it isn’t? It here and happening. Could it be done better - absolutely......but time will tell.
In reference to your model, there’s clubs in that top 10/12/20 that I wouldn’t give 50p to because they’d squander it. Not every club is as well run as GHA.
Keeping it narrow focussed the funding on those players most likely to step up. Spread it thinly and it’s less likely to generate success. Similar to the targeted funding in Olympic cycles.
Gavin Blackburn to Kevin C Brown:
We will agree to disagree. The track record the union have with implementing new structures isn't exactly pulsating so we will see what happens.
When you say narrow focused I find your views narrow minded but that's your opinion.
Kevin C Brown to Gavin Blackburn:
I don’t see it as narrow minded, it’s just working within the reality that currently exists.
John F Brown to Trevor Carmichael:
You are 100% correct, the game should be about players playing the game, up or down. So why did the clubs that missed out on Super 6, block players playing for a club side.
It is incompetent of clubs to stop a talented GHA player trying for Super 6, who on a free Saturday is not allowed back to play for GHA. It is also farcical that the Scottish Clubs XV is not allowed to choose 200 players from the club scene!
Iain Milne to John F Brown:
Totally correct, this typifies what goes on in club rugby in Scotland. As I’ve said many times it is riddled with self-interest and a lack of vision.
The league structure as it stands at the moment is totally outdated and not suitable for today’s players. Clubs would rather hang on to their beloved National leagues, struggling to full fill fixtures, unable to field a 2nd xv and talk about ambition.
Everyone’s ambition has to get more adult players playing the game, we don’t have a future if we don’t do that. Players of today are our future administrators and volunteers with them there will be no club rugby.
Andy Miller:
Only stage 3 academy players will play for the Glasgow franchise I would have thought; but don't be surprised if they add in Stage 3 players from all over the country to play for the Warriors - some Super6 players are only getting 6 games a year and they need to get the academy boys playing.
It's the nature of the beast now - players have always moved on from the lower league clubs and now we're seeing the same thing happen to the National 1 teams. It's a good thing only if they get game time and then pathway into pro teams but if they don't then you have a much bigger issue in that people just won't play rugby anymore.
Why would you spend all your time training and playing only to see the pro teams buy a pro and you've no chance of playing? Where is the incentive? I wouldn't, and I'm not going to encourage my kids to do that under the current circumstances.
What rugby doesn't realise is that so many other sports have got their act together over the last 10 years so there is lots of competition for bodies. Ever been to a Hockey club? It's a tough game now and the social side is fantastic.
Martial arts is attractive due to UFC - you can get a Black Belt in about 4 years and you don't have to spend nearly as much time training before you get decent - and what is missing in Judo? Decent players at over 100kg. You could take a rugby player at that weight, train him and within 4 years he could be fighting for Scotland. Now, what's more attractive? 4 years playing rugby and never getting a sniff of a pro appearance or 4 years of training, getting a Black Belt and fighting for your country?!
Basketball, cycling all these sports are achieving because they've developed. The other massive competition for rugby is SkySports. Why would I pay 25 quid to go and watch Edinburgh for almost the same price I can sit and watch rugby from Fri night solidly through to Sunday teatime.
And people are still interested in watching rugby. Boroughmuir Bears had 2,500 people at Meggetland for Super6 because it was an experience and affordable.
Clubs can still build as community offerings and incentivise fans but they need to work at it. Gone are the days of just opening the gates and people flood in.
Paul Justice:
I wonder, will these two new teams be subject to the same franchise agreement as the other 6?
Will the two teams be allowed to parachute a back-up team into National 1?
Will the Scotstoun XV be a separate trading entity, and if so, who will own them?
Super 6 franchisees had to guarantee a minimum investment, with Scottish Rugby paying in £137k (I think) - how much will the Scotstoun XV be costing Scottish rugby (including pitch rentals, etc.)?
And don't forget, Super 6 was being funded out of the domestic rugby budget, so guess where the finance for Scotstoun xv is coming from.
Ian Notman to Gavin Blackburn:
Gav they may use the Warriors name but sure it will be the clubs GHA and Hawks that will take the franchise on.
It would mean a wider spread of Stage 3 players and more game time.
Personally I would rather see another Pro team for these youngsters.
Stephen Winter to Ian Notman:
Why would the clubs, GHA & Hawks, take the franchise on?
Ian Notman to Stephen Winter:
Just a suggestion Stephen. It’s obvious that the SRU would want a Glasgow based team.
Hawks tried for a franchise last time so why wouldn’t they try again?
Stephen Winter to Ian Notman:
Take on the franchise and costs but play as Warriors?
Ian Notman response:
Play as any name they want under there own banner. They fund it they call the shots to a certain extent.
John Roxburgh:
First step is to introduce school age youngsters to the fun ethics and discipline of our great game.The player base is not sufficient to maintain our present status across the globe which sadly does not seem to concern the Governing body!!!
AS I said, at the start of this post, some very-interesting, not forgetting varied, opinions on show there. Also, some contributions from leading club officials and guys with a long track record of success in Scottish Rugby.
I have my own ideas on how we should move forward, but , I thought, I should share this Facebook thread and throw it open to the Aristotle family.
Let us know what YOU think, then I will follow-up on this interesting and crucial debate.
